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Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR?
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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:46 pm    Post subject: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Let me preface this with my honest and sincere thanks to those who went up there to search for the missing child in the Jacob lake area. Even the ones I'm about to light up did go, and quite likely with honest and mostly good intentions.

That said, what in the FLYING FUCK is this bullshit? Have you ever seen Search and Rescue carve shit into trees and tag them for their little 4x4 club after a search operation concluded?



Yay for vandalism!



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FatRat
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

They are a joke. As a former member of the Elmore County Search & Rescue team I have been on hundreds of searches and many of them were for kids. I have searched high deserts, mountains, and water, and it is a tough thing to do. There is also a very low percentage of finding the lost alive, but when it is a child it is different. Doing a body recovery of a child or even being on the search team of a child body recovery is hard to deal with. The fact that kids really have no idea how to care for themselves in situations like this makes it worse. I always thought about what the child was thinking and how scared they would have been, only to have no help even unto death.

That said, the way these pukes publicized all of this is sickening. They are acting like this child was theirs. My heart breaks for the child but these assholes are only in it for the PR of a stupid club where they don't allow assholes, but yet is filled with douche bag assholes.


They are a complete lack of integrity or professionalism. They have no concept of ICS protocol but they claim to be experienced. As far as I am concerned, their hearts were in the right place but they are an embarassment to actual SAR teams that train for this often and do it because they believe in what they do. I have never seen ANY SAR team post up shit on social media after the fact. There is more spectulation coming from this group about what happened and a legitimate SAR would never do what this group did with all the posting. You want to honor the deceased, then leave it alone. They claim they carved the tree in remembrance of the child, and not for recognition. If that is the case, why was it so important to make sure their club name was on the tree as well. Selfish PR opportunity, that is all it was. Also, a legitimate SAR team would never vandalize ANY surface. This was childish and uncalled for.

As a former SAR team member, this club offends me.

Rant over.... i guess
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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

I especially love how the club name (and supposed 'sar' tag) goes ABOVE the name of the kid. Classy.

Meanwhile, they managed to also have enough time to get interviewed and the club name in the newspaper in St. George.

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4GaugeSurprise
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

I like drawing the distinction between "assholes" and "douche bag assholes".
A subtle nuance, yet worthy of distinction.

I don't have any firsthand experience with SAR, what I do have is just enough common sense to know that is not the time or place or method to stroke ones vanity - that's what it looks happened. If that child's family was active in that group, then I guess i could understand it differently. I do not know if that is or is not the case here.

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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

The child's family was very much not with that group. The group in question was 3 (give or take a few) 'members' of az4x4club who drove up friday. Based on talks with the reporter who interviewed them, they (the club people) were indeed there, so not doubting that aspect at all.


Edit: Aw fuck it, i'll even give them the benefit of the doubt on this bit too. *deleted*

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Homedad wrote:
What are the odds of shooting at an FJ and not getting shot back???
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conejo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Adam, you really need to switch to thong underwear to keep your panties from getting bunched up so easily.

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huh?

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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Nah, stupid people just need to stop being stupid =)

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AG3NT

Homedad wrote:
What are the odds of shooting at an FJ and not getting shot back???
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4GaugeSurprise
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Thoreau wrote:
Nah, stupid people just need to stop being stupid =)

BBWWWAAAHHAHAHAHAH {gasp} HAHAHAHA {gasp} HHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

And what are Trump's current poll numbers?

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Jimbolio
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

This question is directed at FatRat. A serious one.
How can you search from your vehicle? Don't the sounds, smells and feel of the area help you in detecting a victim? I just don't get how driving around in your TJ helps. (Yes, I didn't say FJ, I said TJ).

I've been pondering joining the Arizona Mountain Rescue Association for some time. (Those guys are angels in Tucson and rescue TONS of hikers that foolishly hike trails, in the summer, with NO water).

GOOD PRACTICE BELOW:
While awaiting my BMGGR pass at MCAS Yuma lobby I saw this sign posted.
Marine Corps Yuma Activity Chart
If the freaking Marines take it easy when it gets hot, what makes you think that your experience in the Alps or Les Pyrenees on your lovely european hostel trek or your hike on the Appalachian trail, makes one iota of sense in the Sonoran Desert? There have been SO many Hiker rescues this summer.

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Last edited by Jimbolio on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:03 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Touche....

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AG3NT

Homedad wrote:
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FatRat
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Jimbolio wrote:
This question is directed at FatRat. A serious one.
How can you search from your vehicle? Don't the sounds, smells and feel of the area help you in detecting a victim? I just don't get how driving around in your TJ helps. (Yes, I didn't say FJ, I said TJ).

I am a little confused about this question. Did I say I searched from a vehicle, or are you refering to something else? Because I am pretty sure I didn't say anything about searching from a vehicle.

That said, no, you really can't search from your vehicle. Vehicles are usually only used to get searchers to assigned areas. Yes, I said assigned. Every search I have been part of was run by ICS (Incident Command System) protocol. Therefore, the command location tells searchers where to search, and all official communications go through command. Sometimes that means you have to drive to get there. Once there however, you exit the vehicle and search the area on foot. During a search you are absolutely using all your senses. The biggest sense you use is your hearing. You are listening for calls for help, criying, and even foraging. What sounds like an animal moving in the bushes could easily be the victim. You also watch the wildlife. A sudden flight of animals is an indicator of a preditor, and man is a preditor. All of these have to be check, and really can only be done on foot. Horseback is a great way to search, by riding you are elevated and the horse can go pretty much anyplace you can go.

So to answer your question, No, you can't properly search from a vehicle. There are situations were you can only search by vehicle, but it is not as thorough.
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Grinder
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Idiots doing idiot things, because they're idiots. - Sterling Archer

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Jimbolio
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

I didn't mean "you", I meant any searchers. Thanks for clearing this up.

I noticed No horseback clubs were carving their names into trees. This is why we can't have nice places to go any more.

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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

Grinder wrote:
Idiots doing idiot things, because they're idiots. - Sterling Archer

Winning!

Jimbolio wrote:

I just don't get how driving around in your TJ helps.

I was saying that from the moment they started to self-mobilize on Friday. I'm still not convinced that they were called in, so much as took the 'volunteers are meeting at X at Y tomorrow' as authorization. I have ZERO proof either way, so i won't even go down that rabbit hole any further.

As for value, I DO see value in off road rigs (and experienced operators) as far as moving foot-patrol resources around. We see it all the time on public safety events and it's certainly a valid and valuable resource. (A lot moreso with reliable comms beyond a CB, but that's the radio geek in me coming out again.)


Jimbolio wrote:

I've been pondering joining the Arizona Mountain Rescue Association for some time. (Those guys are angels in Tucson and rescue TONS of hikers that foolishly hike trails, in the summer, with NO water).

I'd love to go down that path with ya if you're interested. TRSAR, SSAR, and a few others have caught my interest ever since working with them in the Mazatzals years ago, and 3rd hand info from a friend who was on numerous SAR missions via his work with the Forest Service. I suspect you'd have more info on all of that than I do given your employment =)


Jimbolio wrote:

If the freaking Marines take it easy when it gets hot, what makes you think that your experience in the Alps or Les Pyrenees on your lovely european hostel trek or your hike on the Appalachian trail, makes one iota of sense in the Sonoran Desert? There have been SO many Hiker rescues this summer.

I don't imagine any of the people that went up there for this search event even had that kind of experience. I'm no CrossfitWarrior (I'll leave that designation for EpicEd) but those guys/gals were NOT avid outdoorsmen/women of the pedestrian variety. (Well, one of them might be, and the others could be too if they're freaks of nature, but again I digress.)

This shit is why I've been pushing myself to do hot weather hikes this year though. Camelback on the 4th of July was an ass kicker, and I LOVED the challenge. =)

But yeah, their only real requirements were a 4x4 rig, 33in tires, front and rear lockers, a winch, and a CB. I'm guessing they hadn't ever been on searches based on that requirements list.

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BellyDoc
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Wow. This is what the offroad community calls SAR? Reply with quote

People want to be part of the solution to a problem because they're decent. However, there's a duality to being a provider of service to humanty. There's selfishness in the selflessness and anyone who denies this is allowing the opportunity for unacknoweldged emotions to influence the process. This is my cross to bear as a surgeon, and it's one part of being human that doesn't go away or get grown out of.

This is what happened here. Probably decent people had a "want" moment mix in with their "give" effort. They wanted to have had the experience of being heroes. They wanted to have made a difference but did not. They wanted to be recognized as having cared enough to be there, and unfortunately in that effort, they made it look ugly and ignorant.

But don't be too harsh too quickly.

They may have really tweaked on this tragedy. It may have been more than they were prepared to handle. Just like they're not trained to actually do searches, they may have even less tooling to deal with bad outcomes. I remember the first time I had a kid die on me in the trauma bay after having kids of my own, and it still haunts me 12 years later. Having kids changed me and it made the experience of knowing a child suffered into psychological agony for me in ways that I never experienced before.

This little graffiti memorial may have been a moment of therapy for them, and if a Sheriff on hand was reading their agitation, he may have decided it best to just let them do it.

It's easy to get angry about these things because it's a time when it feels like we're under the microscope as 4 wheelers, but in the larger view, this one little thing isn't going to change that one bit. It's not likely to be cited as a case supporting point in a legislative effort to close any trail accesses, and it's not going to serve any educational points to try to "alert" that club to the potential for misinterpreted behaviors.

I say let it go.

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glideraz wrote:
if I where you I would just get some jb weld
Is jb weld really as strong as if I just welded them on with my welder?

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Could be stronger it all depends on how you weld
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