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Forums › Arizona FJ Discussion › Expeditions, trail runs, or gatherings › AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area
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AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area
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Chigoe
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

oakleyTRD wrote:
Jimbolio wrote:
Never have been to either place. Respect for prop rights is more important.
But, if all the appropriate permissions were in hand, I wouldn't mind going there and helping clean up.

x2


X3

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nimrag
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Looks like another offroad group that does not realize the ovens are off limits,

hikearizona.com/decode...?ZTN=15894

hikearizona.com/decoder.php?ZTN=830
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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Heh, Hikearizona is hardly an off road group (I'm pretty sure most of them silently despise 4 wheelers.)

One of those routes has been in the system since 2005, the other is new in 2011 though. Couldn't hurt to post up, or let the owner (Joe Bartels) know though. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they took those entries offline, or at least made it abundantly clear that they aren't open at this time.

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nimrag
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

When hiking, your off road and if your a group that is hiking, then...Your an off road group.
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Jagaliscious
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

It doesn't matter if you walk in or drive in...trespassing is trespassing.

You can't be a "public invitee" without the consent of the person who owns the property.

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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

A thought that just dawned on me a moment ago is exactly what is the restriction that the owners want. Have their letters/emails indicated they don't want ANYONE out there under any mode of transportation or purpose, or have all letters and correspondence been under the guise of off-roading? That is to say, perhaps they don't want one but don't mind the other. *shrug*

Being a part of the vast majority who have never DIRECTLY seen the exact wishes of, or communicated with, the owners I couldn't say for sure either way.

Also, talking with a person who I know that was on this run that I trust quite a bit, either the trail leader had permission, or at least the trail leader has communicated that he did indeed have permission. Whether the leader is correct or not, again, I'm not privy to the inner workings. I do believe, at the very least, that many of the people on the run had no reason to believe otherwise based on what information they had been given.

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Jagaliscious
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Trespass law is very to-the-point. You have trespassers, who are not invited nor have express permission to be on the grounds; you have invitees, which have been invited; and you have licensees, which cover workers and the like.

If you do not have permission either as a licensee or an invitee, you are a trespasser. To what degree depends on intent, but that is another subject entirely.

Since Bruce has been in contact with the owners, I'm sure he could easily find out if any groups have been given permission recently.

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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Thing is, the law doesn't have the final say in this. The land owners do. The law doesn't introduce distinctions between transportation modes or intended purpose, but the owners certainly can if they wish to. I for one don't know anything other than them not wanting us out there wheeling, but that's because all of my interest in the matter has been surrounded by that crowd/hobby.

Jagaliscious wrote:
Since Bruce has been in contact with the owners, I'm sure he could easily find out if any groups have been given permission recently.

That would definitely be helpful. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but it really would help everyone (potential visitors and the owners) if communication could somehow be more open and free-flowing on the matter.

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FatRat
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

OK, I have not be forth coming with the information about this subject because I didn’t want people to be bombarding me with questions and trying to offer advice. It has been announced that it is off-limits by a person that personally spoke with the property owner within the past two months. I would hope that people would understand and respect that especially knowing that we are working on it. The goal is to work with the property owner and receive their TRUST and achieve permission to be on the land. We are doing this in different ways. Like I said earlier, they are not yet in the state. Things will hopefully move along when they get here. We will let people know what is going on when there is news to share. The other clubs that are involved are being told the same thing.

As I have said, I HAVE spoken directly to the property owner and spoke with him for a good long time, and I asked him point blank what his desires were concerning people visiting the property. He told me that he really didn’t want anyone to be out there. His concern is the damage that has been done and is now being done to the property. Someone mentioned the cabin that is out there. The owner told me that in the not so distant past that that cabin was fully in tacked, furnished and habitable. He told me that people have gone out there and destroyed the furniture and appliances, broke out the windows and pulled the doors of the hinges. Eventually (to his best guess) someone strapped the front porch and pulled it down. There is also a windmill out there that used to be standing but someone hooked up to it and pulled it over and then shot up and vandalized the water tank that went with it. He informed me that he has put up many gates and posted countless signs only to have them torn down and destroyed by people that are determined to get in there.

We spoke at length about the large percentage of the off-road community that is not out to damage anything and is very respectful of the land and historic buildings. We also spoke about the very small percentage of the people who really just don’t care and think that they are privileged and can do what they want. This being both off-roaders as well has hikers. He does understand that the small percentage of people get the majority of the attention and makes the large percentage of adventurists look bad.

When I spoke with him he did tell me that he had spoken to “someone from a Jeep club” and I later found out that it was someone from the VJC. I will not mention his name because it really doesn’t matter who it is at this time, but I have spoken personally with him as well. This person WAS given permission to organize a clean-up out there, but that is it. The owner did not tell me of any other person that he has given permission to. It is entirely possible that this trail leader of the recent run has gotten permission in the past. It may still be valid, it may not be. That is up to the property owner. I can only go by what he told me a month and a half ago and that was that he didn’t want anyone to be out there, but he was willing to work something out with us. I took that to mean that we would probably be working for the permission to go out there. I will not go into the different things that have been discussed around but just know that we are trying.

It was mentioned that there was a lot of trash and what not all around the cabin and ovens. I know that the VJC brought out more than 30 large bags of trash. So either they couldn’t get it all or all of that trash has been put there in the past month.

As I said earlier, I cannot force anyone from not going out there. All I can do is ask that you DO NOT go out there and to respect the owners request. Once we find something out we WILL tell you guys, weather it is good or bad. PLEASE do not jeopardize things by going out there without permission. It only takes one incident to undermine everything we have worked toward thus far.

The Coke Ovens are on PRIVATE PROPERTY and are OFF LIMITS, and I AM someone who HAS spoken directly with the property owner about this. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE……DO NOT GO OUT THERE.
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Angry_Tim
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Thanks for the update Bruce.

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AZFJTOY
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Wow, that's really sad that some sh*theads go out there and tear up the property. I would guess only teenagers would be that foolish.

I think it could only benefit the property owner to allow certain groups, like us, to visit the ovens and clean up as much as possible. Having people out there who respect the land might help chase away fools who don't.

If we ever get permission I'd be happy to help improve the area to get to see some history. Signs, fences and gates aren't cheap so I'd even be ok with paying a fee to see them; help the owner out financially.

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Thoreau
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Cross posted to Hike Arizona.

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MrVTX
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

Thanks for the update and your efforts Bruce.
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AZFJRay
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: AORC April 14th Box Canyon/Coke Ovens Area Reply with quote

AZFJTOY wrote:
Wow, that's really sad that some sh*theads go out there and tear up the property. I would guess only teenagers would be that foolish.

I think it could only benefit the property owner to allow certain groups, like us, to visit the ovens and clean up as much as possible. Having people out there who respect the land might help chase away fools who don't.

If we ever get permission I'd be happy to help improve the area to get to see some history. Signs, fences and gates aren't cheap so I'd even be ok with paying a fee to see them; help the owner out financially.



I'd pay a fee and or help out with putting up fences, gates and signs. I hope to someday making a trip out to the coke ovens. "IF PERMISSION IS GRANTED"

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