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The bottom line.
Meetings, access issues, cleanups, news, land use info.
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Jimbolio
Master Wheeler
Master Wheeler


Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 11839
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

*Sigh*

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Chigoe
Baja Champ
Baja Champ


Joined: Jan 03, 2008
Posts: 3621
Location: Sunny Scottsdale

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

AZstateParksOHV wrote:
Reading the OP and Chris's response, it appears as if you guys think ARS has an environmental agenda. They are simply a government contractor that agencies like BLM and USFS hire to complete work the agencies do not have staff for. I actually know a couple of people who worked for ARS that are avid dirt bikers and wheelers. They were hired to inventory routes on BLM land so that they can be added to the road inventory and posted route signage so people know where to go. Those dudes worked hard to make sure every remote track was picked up and counted so we could continue to enjoy them.

If the issue is routes getting closed, your focus should be on the agencies making those decisions and the groups who advocate for closures IMHO. I would like to see some documentation stating that ARS has an agenda for closure, because I haven't seen it. I'm a landscape architect and have to deal with NEPA and EAs when planning for trails and recreational facilities...I also wheel and ride in my free time. Does simply having to deal with things with "environment" in the name make you a closure bent enviromentalist?

The Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. (ARS) is an environmental extremist organization.
They are a government contractor CREATED to close land.


Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. (ARS) ARE the ones making the closure decisions with thier "findings".

If you have read any of the environment impact statements created by them (Tonto NF, TableMesa etc), you will easliy recognize the agenda they have.

The "Route Evaluation Tree" created by Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. is used to close (not evaluate) trails across the country.
It is so flawed and biased in its conception and use to be meaningless.


Fact: "Route Evaluation Tree" created by Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. to evaluate trails has 105 possible outcomes for a piece of trail.
Of these 105 outcomes for trails, 84 of them are "close,restrict,or limit" and only 17 outcomes could be "open".
Out of the 17 possibilitys to remain "open", 14 of them allow the option for closure anyway.
Only three possibilitys allow for a trail to remain open as is. Three (3)
Three out of 105.

Fact: "Use of the trails" surveyed does not include your FJ or Jeep use.
Closest thing would be "SUV touring" (Whatever that is)
There is NO checkbox for four-wheel drive truck!

Fact: A "route inventory" contractor would not be holding public meetings and install signage.
These are direct conflicts of interest...the more they close, the more money they make from signage, future contracts.

Simply put: The surveys of your trails were done by folks who's company was formed, budgeted, designed and produced to close them.
These are known as environmental extremists. Dont take my word..read and find out for yourself.
Neat part is, its all done with your tax dollar to boot.


Bottom line: America's been robbed of itself.
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az4runner
Trail Runner
Trail Runner


Joined: Aug 02, 2013
Posts: 607
Location: Golden, CO

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

Does this have any relevance to the OHV tags I have to purchase for my dirtbikes every 6 months or so?

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someone please remove jimbolio's access to google.
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Homedad
Master Wheeler
Master Wheeler


Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 9272

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

Yes...but the dirt bike is included in "the plan"

You will still have a few trails Wink
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Angry_Tim
Master Wheeler
Master Wheeler


Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 5407
Location: Marana,az

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

az4runner wrote:
Does this have any relevance to the OHV tags I have to purchase for my dirtbikes every 6 months or so?

The OHV tag is good for a year not 6 months.

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az4runner
Trail Runner
Trail Runner


Joined: Aug 02, 2013
Posts: 607
Location: Golden, CO

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

Sad Yea I know but I always buy them and then I get no time to ride so the next time I want to ride I have to buy new tags
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blue10
Obstacle Crusher
Obstacle Crusher


Joined: Nov 12, 2010
Posts: 2512
Location: Mesa

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

Chigoe wrote:
AZstateParksOHV wrote:
Reading the OP and Chris's response, it appears as if you guys think ARS has an environmental agenda. They are simply a government contractor that agencies like BLM and USFS hire to complete work the agencies do not have staff for. I actually know a couple of people who worked for ARS that are avid dirt bikers and wheelers. They were hired to inventory routes on BLM land so that they can be added to the road inventory and posted route signage so people know where to go. Those dudes worked hard to make sure every remote track was picked up and counted so we could continue to enjoy them.

If the issue is routes getting closed, your focus should be on the agencies making those decisions and the groups who advocate for closures IMHO. I would like to see some documentation stating that ARS has an agenda for closure, because I haven't seen it. I'm a landscape architect and have to deal with NEPA and EAs when planning for trails and recreational facilities...I also wheel and ride in my free time. Does simply having to deal with things with "environment" in the name make you a closure bent enviromentalist?

The Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. (ARS) is an environmental extremist organization.
They are a government contractor CREATED to close land.


Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. (ARS) ARE the ones making the closure decisions with thier "findings".

If you have read any of the environment impact statements created by them (Tonto NF, TableMesa etc), you will easliy recognize the agenda they have.

The "Route Evaluation Tree" created by Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. is used to close (not evaluate) trails across the country.
It is so flawed and biased in its conception and use to be meaningless.


Fact: "Route Evaluation Tree" created by Advanced Resource Solutions, Inc. to evaluate trails has 105 possible outcomes for a piece of trail.
Of these 105 outcomes for trails, 84 of them are "close,restrict,or limit" and only 17 outcomes could be "open".
Out of the 17 possibilitys to remain "open", 14 of them allow the option for closure anyway.
Only three possibilitys allow for a trail to remain open as is. Three (3)
Three out of 105.

Fact: "Use of the trails" surveyed does not include your FJ or Jeep use.
Closest thing would be "SUV touring" (Whatever that is)
There is NO checkbox for four-wheel drive truck!

Fact: A "route inventory" contractor would not be holding public meetings and install signage.
These are direct conflicts of interest...the more they close, the more money they make from signage, future contracts.

Simply put: The surveys of your trails were done by folks who's company was formed, budgeted, designed and produced to close them.
These are known as environmental extremists. Dont take my word..read and find out for yourself.
Neat part is, its all done with your tax dollar to boot.


Bottom line: America's been robbed of itself.

Nice work Jimmy! Makes me wanna shoot communists more than the first time I drove into East Germany.

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AZstateParksOHV
Dusty Truck
Dusty Truck


Joined: Jan 07, 2013
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

I guess you guys should start a company that can offer services to the federal government like ARS does or identify existing companies with similar capabilities and suggest they throw their hat in the arena. I do not like unneccesary route closures. My program at state parks supports and funds the creation of motorized recreation opportunities on federal, state, and local muni lands. Our OHV advisory group met today and recommended the funding of several areas around the state. In other news, only 5 people in the entire state stepped up and applied to become OHVAG members starting next year. For those who have a passion about shaping the future of off highway rec in az...get involved. OHVAG, OHV ambassadors, TRAL, clubs that actually meet, my OHV newsletter, participate in our upcoming statewide trails survey, show up to public meetings, etc... Lots of ways to get involved.
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Jimbolio
Master Wheeler
Master Wheeler


Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 11839
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

AZstateParksOHV wrote:
participate in our upcoming statewide trails survey,
How do we help do that?

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K9JBO
Quote:
"Safest place is IN the Jeep......<pause>....Maybe not "www.youtube.com/embed/rQT9E06ql8Q
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AZstateParksOHV
Dusty Truck
Dusty Truck


Joined: Jan 07, 2013
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

Jimbolio wrote:
AZstateParksOHV wrote:
participate in our upcoming statewide trails survey,
How do we help do that?

Here are the different ways we will collect data.
1. Random phone survey
2. Targeted OHV user survey, names were collected at my trail talks, club out reach, and by OHVAG members (you are on that list)
3. Open public web survey. I will share that link via our website, our newsletters, posting to forums like this, and club outreach.
4. In person at public events statewide. I will publish dates and times the same way as mentioned previously.

This will be the most comprehensive Ohv survey ever conducted in Arizona with outreach efforts that are unprecedented. Seriously, what other state has a Ohv program coordinator who posts to forums like this at 11pm? I need the Ohv community's input and go to extreme lengths to get it Smile Ohv stuff by Ohv people, 16x7 (dude has to sleep sometimes).
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Jimbolio
Master Wheeler
Master Wheeler


Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 11839
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

In person I like. Jeff I like. Don't know about ARS.

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krzyaz
Dusty Truck
Dusty Truck


Joined: Feb 15, 2013
Posts: 69
Location: Maricopa, AZ

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

AZstateParksOHV wrote:
Jimbolio wrote:
AZstateParksOHV wrote:
participate in our upcoming statewide trails survey,
How do we help do that?

Here are the different ways we will collect data.
1. Random phone survey
2. Targeted OHV user survey, names were collected at my trail talks, club out reach, and by OHVAG members (you are on that list)
3. Open public web survey. I will share that link via our website, our newsletters, posting to forums like this, and club outreach.
4. In person at public events statewide. I will publish dates and times the same way as mentioned previously.

This will be the most comprehensive Ohv survey ever conducted in Arizona with outreach efforts that are unprecedented. Seriously, what other state has a Ohv program coordinator who posts to forums like this at 11pm? I need the Ohv community's input and go to extreme lengths to get it Smile Ohv stuff by Ohv people, 16x7 (dude has to sleep sometimes).

Is it too late to get on the list or is the web survey enough?

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Chigoe
Baja Champ
Baja Champ


Joined: Jan 03, 2008
Posts: 3621
Location: Sunny Scottsdale

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

The public input sections of the Travel planning was done years ago.
You must understand that we are at the end of this process and not the beginning.
If it was football: the game is over, it was rigged, they had too many men on the field, and we are asking for a review. Not a simple review of a play during the game.
The land is closed, the trails have been closed, and we are simply the last few squeaky wheels to be oiled.

I am sure that over the next few decades, a fine SUV touring trail system to bicycle path parking lots will be established. And very select areas set aside for specialty groups, and I believe this is whats going on now and I applaud those putting in the efforts to get back what they can.

But I find it would be helpful, if one is to wage war, to understand the opposition.

In the previously mentioned Route Evaluation Plan, to understand that 3 out of 105 options to keep an offroad trails open, was challenged in court by 14 environmental groups for allowing too many roads to remain.
While we aim at one road or another trail in "surveys and input" , they have already aimed at ALL the trails and have already scored.
Simply understanding where we are in this battle will help in putting resources and effort where it would be best served.
To remain ignorant of the opposition only serves their purpose of staying hidden in the first place.

I encourage any one to begin reading the Environmental impact statements for the areas involved. You tell me if the descriptions of use, and environmental impacts claimed are what you see in the real world.

All I know is this is not the America that I was born in.
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AZstateParksOHV
Dusty Truck
Dusty Truck


Joined: Jan 07, 2013
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

krzyaz wrote:

Is it too late to get on the list or is the web survey enough?
It is too late to get on the target user survey, but the web, random, and in person ones will be available.

In terms of it being too late for public involvement in BLM or USFS travel management, the post following yours is incorrect. Trails, roads, and technical vehicle routes can be added after travel management. That is a fact. Kelly canyon in flag being a prime example. My office is always willing to work with user groups to get old trails added and new ones built. It is absolutely possible. There are several Blm and forests still going thru the process. It isn't over, and even when the agencies "finish", it can be changed...again, fact. Keep in mind, the Feds are very interested in removing roads to keep pace with declining budgets. Good news for us wheelers, as it is too our benefit for those roads to be converted to trails so they don't have to be maintained to road standards.
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AZstateParksOHV
Dusty Truck
Dusty Truck


Joined: Jan 07, 2013
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: The bottom line. Reply with quote

Chigoe wrote:
The public input sections of the Travel planning was done years ago.
Not correct, lots of areas in AZ are not done with TMP. Lots of places have not issued final decisions or issued MVUMs.

The survey I mentioned is being conducted by my office to develop our statewide trails plan and gain input on how the motorized community would like us to invest their OHV rec fund dollars. We do it every five years to keep pace with the changing needs of the public.
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