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ACTIVE Arizona Fires
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tanman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

Jimbolio wrote:
Nope, sorry, I'm done with you.

Cool, works for me too. Just watch those trigger words. Don't combine "Pinal Fire" "Saved" and "Globe", and we're good. Very Happy
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Jimbolio
Master Wheeler
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

What you Don't want to see when wheeling


And what you DO want to see

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4GaugeSurprise
Obstacle Crusher
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

I don't know what the "right" or "wrong" way to deal with the situation is, but asserting that the people trying to deal with the situation are somehow criminal will certainly not help. Becoming educated on both sides of any topic is the only real way to engage in effective discussion.

Without being fully educated in long term forest management, long term ecology, fire management, and economics there is no way any of us can say exactly what should or shouldn't be done. Having an opinion is your right, to admonish others because they don't agree doesn't do anyone any good.

We know for a fact that many of the forests do in fact NEED to burn. The issue we have facing us today is that these smaller, lower intensity fires that should have cleared out the underbrush have been suppressed for generations and there really isn't an easy way to get back to the "natural" state. There are several known options, none are perfect and all have major faults but what we do know is that we can't keep doing the same thing that has been done for decades, which is to immediately put out any fire as soon as possible. That is how we got into this mess.

In some cases it really may be necessary to have an intense fire clear the area, then do what can be done with the given resources to encourage native plants to regrow (sometimes from the roots that still exist underground). this will take a very long time, possibly decades, but sometimes it's the best option. At least that's what many scientists currently believe, and the word "sometimes" is very important here.

Here are a few very generalized (and non-confrontational) articles opening that discussion.

http://www.npr.org/2017/01/05/508319075/forest-service-tries-a-different-approach-on-whether-to-let-fires-burn

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160722-why-we-should-let-raging-wildfires-burn

http://www.washington.edu/news/2015/09/17/scientists-let-wildfires-burn-when-prudent/

Bottom line: People doing what they believed was the "right" thing for the past several decades have created a much larger problem. Now there are people trying to address this and figure out how to help (or let) nature self correct. We don't have all the answers, and some of the answers we do have are extremely unpopular, some may take decades before we have any way to know if it was the "best" thing to do. There are sure to be some more major f*ups along the way as well because that's pretty much what humans do best.

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tanman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

From link 1:
LAPLANTE: It wasn't torching trees. It was just cleaning up the forest floor, getting rid of all of that over-accumulation of dead, woody debris.


From the Inciweb updates they absolutely were torching tress. As I said before, I challenge you to see for yourself rather than posting articles about how controlled low intensity fires SHOULD WORK. Like the Juniper Fire, the first test of a new USFS strategy, the Pinal Fire FAILED.

From link 2:

Pine trees in the Ponderosa forests found across the western United States and Canada have thick, heat-resistant bark to protect the living tissues inside from rising temperatures. They also naturally drop their lower branches to prevent fire catching into the canopy.

High-intensity fires in these crowded forests are devastating, killing at least 70% of trees in their path. "The plants and animals that inhabit this ecosystem are generally not well-adapted to this change in fire regime," says Ingalsbee. As a result they are unable to rebound after intense crown-fires.


The boasting of the planners and executers of these fiascos can't change the reality of the damage. So far here the USFS CAN'T MANAGE THESE FIRES. They are NOT low intensity burns. The same 70% of Ponderosas were killed. Unless you're willing to believe what can be seen in the pictures I took OR COME AND SEE FOR YOURSELF you're NOT educated in this situation or qualified to converse about it.

The exposed, bare soil that remains is extremely prone to erosion, washing away nutrients and clogging nearby streams and rivers.


The USFS is right now trying to blanket the bare scorched earth with straw / dirt. When monsoons arive this will add to the debris flowing downstream. Gila county is trying to clear a path for the inevitable. Some are expecting bridges to fail due to clogging with debris.

From link 3:
“There’s a huge area of accessible forestlands we could restore to a much more resilient condition that would be much less prone to catastrophic fires,” he said.


Maybe Ponderosas will return and in a few decades be recognizable as a forest. At this point it's more likely the bare ground will be stripped away and any seeds headed towards Roosevelt lake.

Historically, these frequent-fire forest regions in the Intermountain West often experienced low-intensity fires, which kept the forest from building up excess fuels in the form of dense brush and trees. But under the U.S. Forest Service’s philosophy of suppressing fire, every fire is generally given the same response — react with firefighters to control and put it out, regardless of whether it would be prudent to let it burn monitored, Franklin said.

Historically playing with fire hasn't ended well. Plans for fires whether done by children or adults go awry. The USFS may PLAN a low intensity fire but managing it ends up being beyond their grasp as it did here.

“Management reform in the United States has failed, not because of policy, but owing to lack of coordinated pressure sufficient to overcome entrenched agency disincentives to working with fire,” the authors write.

Play with fire and you're going to get burned. It's true whether you're 5 or 50 or more. Whether you're in first grade or have a doctorate in pyromania. Fighting fire with fire has obviously failed here.

If the old Smokey Bear plan is now considered a failure then this new one certainly is.


Last edited by tanman on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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tanman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

Pine trees in the Ponderosa forests found across the western United States and Canada have thick, heat-resistant bark to protect the living tissues inside from rising temperatures. They also naturally drop their lower branches to prevent fire catching into the canopy.

High-intensity fires in these crowded forests are devastating, killing at least 70% of trees in their path. "The plants and animals that inhabit this ecosystem are generally not well-adapted to this change in fire regime," says Ingalsbee. As a result they are unable to rebound after intense crown-fires.

For those that have travelled the Asbestos Point trail since the Juniper Fire: Based on the text above, what do you suppose the percentage of trees in the path of this USFS burn survived?
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4GaugeSurprise
Obstacle Crusher
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

sometimes you just can't see the forest through the trees.

Like I said, those weren't literal examples addressing our recent fires, but an example of where the discussion is ongoing about changing the way people think about forest management and fire. Your attempt to disprove the validity of that discussion based on an incorrect correlation to specific incidents is not a valid point.

You keep locked onto this concept of a "controlled burn", much of the forest land has been overgrown so much that managers can hope for a "controlled burn" but quite frankly, there is no way to guarantee that with unlimited funding, impossible with the small stipend they currently have to work with, and still may not serve to fix the issues LONG TERM!.

Your "challenge" to go see for ourselves shows that you are missing the entire point: that looking at the recent aftermath of a huge fire can determine if that was for the greater "good" or "bad" is wholly impossible and not relevant. It only serves to inspire a knee-jerk reaction based on emotion rather than understanding of decades long processes. It took many decades (or more) of mismanagement for the forest to become the massive tinderbox that it is. It will take many years, even a decade or two to even begin to make any determination of how an area will recover and how successful (or not) a total burn will be in the long term.

Since you seem to feel bold caps is what generates a response, I'll try this:
THERE IS NO WAY TO LOOK AT ANY RECENT FIRE AREA AND DETERMINE THE LONG TERM HEALTH OF THAT AREA

QUICKLY PUTTING OUT ALL FOREST FIRES IS WHAT HAS LED US TO THIS ISSUE OF HAVING UNCONTROLLABLE MASSIVE DESTRUCTIVE BURNS

SOME AREAS ARE INDEED BETTER SERVED TO BE ALLOWED TO BURN OUT TOTALLY SO THAT THE FOREST WILL REBUILD NATURALLY OVER THE LONG TERM - YES THERE WILL BE EROSION, THAT'S NATURE

INSISTING THAT ALL OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED ARE IDIOTS, CRIMINALS, OR MALICIOUS BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OBSERVATIONS IS NOT IN ANY WAY USEFUL, CREDIBLE, OR CONDUCIVE TO BEING PART OF A SOLUTION.


You're pissed, we get it. But maybe it's better to try to become part of the solution rather than lash out at anyone involved.
Just a suggestion.

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tanman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

Clearly a different solution is needed than burning up forests.

Cleanup maybe. Burnup is a criminal negligence of the duty to protect, the same as a cop shooting an unarmed citizen.
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4GaugeSurprise
Obstacle Crusher
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

tanman wrote:
Clearly a different solution is needed than burning up forests.

Cleanup maybe. Burnup is a criminal negligence of the duty to protect, the same as a cop shooting an unarmed citizen.

No clue how you jumped from forest management to shootings, and at this point I don't care since it's an extremest nonsense statement determined only to elicit an emotional response.

The entire point is that yes, sometimes the entire forest does need to burn, that's where the last century of "management" has left things.

And the only thing here that can bee said "clearly" is that you have your mind set and that's that. Science, facts, reality be damned. The good part is that you don't have to believe it for it to be true.

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tanman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

4GaugeSurprise wrote:

The entire point is that yes, sometimes the entire forest does need to burn, that's where the last century of "management" has left things.

And the only thing here that can bee said "clearly" is that you have your mind set and that's that. Science, facts, reality be damned. The good part is that you don't have to believe it for it to be true.

Yup, that pretty well sums up your point. We'll have to disagree on burning up of forests by those paid to protect them. That's a pretty good definition of insanity.

No worries though, I don't wear a badge, but I do wish there were groups representing the US forests as well as squirrels and fish.
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Jimbolio
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

Redington Road now closed from MP 2 to MP 26. Essentially ALL of Redington Rd is closed.


Pima County Sheriff‏Verified account @PimaSheriff 1h1 hour ago
More
UPDATE:Redington Road is now closed from MP 2 to MP 26. Please call the Pima County Road Closure line 520-547-7510 for more information.

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azflycaster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

I'm fishing up on the rim and boasting the open carry look with my fly rod......sad

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mod_muscle
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

I like pretty girls. And cotton candy. And FJ's.
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tibaal89
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

Holy shit what is going on in here, thought I'd come see what the fires are up to... Shocked

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Jimbolio
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

Holy shit is an accurate characterization

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Homedad
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: ACTIVE Arizona Fires Reply with quote

Very Happy


Last edited by Homedad on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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